Curse

UbarDPS · Feb 26, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

For Prophecies, mesmers are redundant before THK. MM or nuker are much better choice. Villa the Unpleasant? Harmless with mesmer in group, 15 minute fight without.

Incorrect... I find mesmers redundant throughout the whole campaign, and I don't generally expect it to change in any of the later ones (since I only have Prophecies). There are some classes that basically have spots reserved for them in most missions and in certain areas. You ever farmed tombs and/or Oro with a mesmer? I haven't. It's all Monk/Necro/Ranger/War unless you meet other new players who would rather go at it with a full party (for safety, but with a good MM and an SS Necro safety doesn't exist, stuff just dies in record speed). People don't even really want Elementalists, cause minions don't run out of energy and don't get exhausted.

Don't need a mesmer for Terrorweb Dryders if they're dying in 10 seconds or less and you have two necros in the group (Barbs on the spiders, Blood Ritual the Monk[s] - all good, or just spike them down with Desecrate Enchantments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The problem isn't with the class, but with the PvE content, which is for most part so easy, that brute force wins over finesse.

*Buzz*BINGO*Buzzer Off*

The game is way too easy. It's too easy to level up to 20 and get max armor, that most players can go simple (don't use any Superior/Gold runes) and have enough HP to kite the mob around instead of having to be smart and play smart. Ascension is used as a PL tool and then ignorant players use parties to PL their Elite Skill count and piggy them through missions/quests.

Couple that with the fact that in most of the areas that would prove challenging, there are ways to skip the content (imps in Hell's Precipice anyone, after last bridge before the Seer?).

I just started playing and the game was so fun until I reached level 20 - there is nothing to work for after that, simply not enough "choice" in the game to make it fun after you have capped all your skill and brought all of the non-elites from Dakk in Ember Light Camp (Feast of Corruption was a nice Cap, though - thanks).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Obviously, since majority goes through the content with simple builds, they just don't know what to do with mesmer once they do become a valuable group member.

And that means playing mesmer as mesmer, not some abhoration of fast-cast nuker, or rezmer (If you need a rezmer in PvE, you're in trouble anyway).

There need to be more ways for toons to stand out and differentiate themselves from others. I guess that's why other games like EQ/WoW/L2/EQ2 are so insanely popular. After you get to level 20 the only thing different from you and the other toons playing are the campaigns you own and the graphics used for your armor. There should have been more armor slots and mobs should drop armors with different attributes/armor/stats on them - possibly some more innovative foci.

That would mean a new game though, so I'm just going to go try out L2 now. Guild Wars plays like something on a Super Nintendo. Much too simplistic for a the likes of anyone who wants to play a Good, Balanced MMORPG that actually has some risk for which they can be rewarded. I guess the reason why so many people play is cause there's no subscription charge.

Moving along.

the_jos · Feb 26, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Like I said in an other posting on this topic and others in this topic, the problem is not the mesmer or it's skills, it's the way the current AI works that makes the mesmer one of the characters people replace for a 'better' one. Together with Sin that is.

The reason why:
Both are great at disabling a target or taking it out themselfs.
The problem is that with current AI, 2 melee characters can aggro and block the mob, leaving the casters relatively protected.
If it was PvP, where mesmer and sin do add value, this would not happen.

A way to 'fix' this problem is to extend the aggro range of mobs the moment an enemy comes in range (the little circle) to full compass.
Then, let them 'decide' to pick targets, protecting themselfs and reaching for monks and casters instead of the tanks.

A good example of this is a Sunreach farm I did with two guildmates.
Me monk, one ele, one Warrior.
Warrior takes full aggro on the entire mob, drags them back blocking their way to us.
I heal (no sweat) and our ele nukes them to bits.
Our warrior has some skill doing this, but that's about it.

Now compare that to PvP.
The moment that should happen, it's 16 or more enemies on the casters (monk first) leaving the warrior untouched (he can't really damage them compared to the ele and is helpless without the monk).
When the casters are dead, kill the warrior.

As a mesmer, I don't mind not being preferred in most missions.
I have my finest moments when parties need my help because they can't kill certain bosses without me.
I'm not that bad, my Lightbringer title is only on to hide my protector titles.

UbarDPS · Feb 26, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

As a mesmer, I don't mind not being preferred in most missions.
I have my finest moments when parties need my help because they can't kill certain bosses without me.
I'm not that bad, my Lightbringer title is only on to hide my protector titles.

I henched most Prophecies mission in a semi-AFK manner by just planting the flag and letting them annahilate the enemy (which they do 85% of the time, Res sig for a monk when they don't it'll recharge when they kill the next boss

) while i surf on the other computer, so I don't see what Protector titles have to do with anything.

Game too easy, skill not required. Great MMORPG for players just jumping into this type of game, not for anyone who's played high end EQ/AO/etc.

There's no concept of class balance, certain classes dominate the game and just blantantly overpowered (like Necros). Henchmen are seemingly only of maginal usefulness unless using you're runnign with a full team of them IMO. Their AI is subpar. Ciao.

Skyy High · Feb 26, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

If it makes you feel any better Ubar, Nightfall's high level PvE is far harder than Prophecies. The Realm of Torment makes the Ring of Fire look like Kryta. It does actually pay to be able to shut down or disable mobs there, simply because, for possibly the first time in GW PvE, the monsters have a decent chance of spiking your team to death before you can smash their faces in.

Yeah, Prophecies is easy. It's not representative of the entire game anymore.

upier · Feb 26, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferret

Sorry, but mesmers are FAR from sub-par and not being useful. It all comes down to the skill and experience of the player. My mesmer has been the difference between success and failure in many missions, so to rule them out of being useful is a very blinkered attitude and part of the root problem.

youre basicly saying that mesmers are good because youre good at the game. your example says nothing about the mesmer class.
the mesmer class has serious problems in pve - and like ive said in other threads - i really cant see a way of anet fixing them without completly changing what we understand under the term 'pve'. until them - the mesmer will just have to take one for the team!

Sir Skullcrasher · Feb 26, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I love Mesmer in PvE (have one on my account) cuz you can interrupt the living hell out of casters and slow and degen out of tanks or melee units. Like everyone said, I can't think of anything that could be added to the mesmer class without overpowering it.

Puebert · Feb 26, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Ryker

That's because people think the only way to kill anything is to beat it to death.

That is exactly why people don't take mesmers and totally not true. While all the damage dealers are focusing on one target til it's dead, mesmers can tab around and start degen or shut downs on the other targets.

o.0? The Mesmer does focus on killing one target. To spread Degen around like you're saying, one would have to waste a TON of energy.

Quote:

So it's a pity thing rather than an acknowledgement of what they can do?

Some of the time, yes. However, there are times where I've been so happy to have a Mesmer in my group, just because they did such a good job. I know they can do a whole lot. To one target... Of course SOME skills are spread to adjacent, just not a lot.

Quote:

Anet doesn't need to buff the mesmer. What needs to happen is that the pug parties need to be educated on mesmer skills. If everyone made a mesmer, they would know what they are capable of and make sure they always have one in their party.

...In all honestly, as much as I love the Mesmer, they do need to buff it. It just can't do damage anywhere near an SS/Nuker to a mob.

Quote:

Possible idea's? Like I said, educate the ignorant.

Um, okay, go into Lion's Arch and spam, "TAKE MESMERS IN YOUR PARTY!!". See how that works.

Yes, the Mesmer class is powerful. Like I've said 100 times, they are my favorite class to play, but they, like Assassins (who are also fun to play) are just not wanted in groups as much as other classes.

Blame the Monks · Feb 26, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Most of the problem with Mesmers comes from the exact problem described in the initial post - monsters are a bunch of headless chickens that you're looking to execute as quickly as possible.

QFT. Much of pve is the result of poor level design -- too much damage, too little thinking. I hope to see pve monsters designed with small but diverse mobs with pvp type bars and a level designed to make each individual fight reward skill and thought and less zergpower (high level, high damage, cheating skills, dumb aggro patterns, and/or hugh mob size). But guess what we are getting =/

I recently made a PvE mesmer and I was disappointed in her killing speed at first. When you are low level (under level 15), illusion works great. But by the time you start regularly fighting 20+ monsters, degen is just way too slow, even against a single monster. Dom is sucky and conditional, so it is rarely valuable -- why pspike when you could just meteor shower?

But there are some good things about mesmers -- specifically the armor ignoring damage. This makes a huge difference against extremely high armor, high level opponents. For example, in heavy hex areas shatter hexing off of koss is great damage. It is overpriced, but with gole and MOR it is useable.

Interrupting/shutdown is also pretty handy against some bosses (as noted). One mesmer sitting on that level 28 fire ele boss will do more to save your level 15 npc than another healer would.

I also frequently find myself going half-healer so I can play with one less monk. I won't pretend a mesmer is a better healer than a monk, but they aren't unplayable as one.

Terra Xin · Feb 26, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Its not the Mesmer's fault that PvE can be won over with damge and more damage and lots more damage. For a class that is designed to be in the heart of strategy, alot of the skills go to waste and have no use in PvE at all. E-Denial, one of the Mesmer's most unique feats, can't be utilised at all in PvE.

The reason why strategy in PvE is so shallow is due to the existance of PuGs, and other peoples disinterest in expanding on the builds that they use in specialist missions. So many players assume that the game is easy, when in fact, the game is easy because they only play with the most common builds... It gets boring after a time.

Regardless, I still reckon that having a Mesmer in your party, using the limited skills that they have, will still make them a very powerfull ally, just like any other ally - I've done all three campaings with my mesmer, and by my own fortune I was easily able to get into groups. For the entire Luxon side favours the mesmer's abilities, and the final missions of all three campaigns can be made more smoothly by the mesmer. Just imagine how powerful they would become, if the number of usable skills in PvE widened?

Diddy bow · Feb 26, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

1:Give pve monsters some decent builds so they dont just get pwt by force
2:More intelegent mesmer needing missions
3:Hack unbelivers
4:Give them rit style bodies..............

Jetdoc · Feb 26, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Problem, the birth of the 55 memser.

Chaos Storm lasts 10 seconds, does a maximum of 17 damage per second, and has a 30 second recharge.

Chaos Storm is NOT Zealot's Fire, by any stretch of the imagination.

Shady79 · Feb 26, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

"Give them rit style bodies.............."

no... mesmer female > all

Katari · Feb 27, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

The reason why strategy in PvE is so shallow is due to the existance of PuGs, and other peoples disinterest in expanding on the builds that they use in specialist missions. So many players assume that the game is easy, when in fact, the game is easy because they only play with the most common builds... It gets boring after a time.

That is illogical, and entirely not the case. PvE is easy because the AI isn't very good, and monster skillsets are poorly thought out, and often do not consist of a full 8 skills. PUGs need to exist for the health of the game. People need to be able to find random people and play with each other if GW is going to make it as a multiplayer game.

The difficulty of PvE is not tied to cookie-cutter builds directly either. The Elite missions/DoA may be exceptions, but I'm not talking of those areas either. The rest of the three campaigns can be cleared using henchmen who certainly don't carry "cookie cutter builds."

After having played a mesmer through all three campaigns, I can fully agree, mobs are not designed in a way that promotes the use of mesmers. That, and mesmer skills are not designed to outright kill mobs. The combination of those makes mesmers kinda meh in general PvE.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 27, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

I probably said this already in this topic....please forgive me for saying again.

Mesmers can really use some tweaks to skills to offer group support!
Especially in fast casting and with high levels in inspiration.
Weeeeeeeeeeee! People would really want a mesmer if the profession could offer some cool support and buffage of party members.

HolyHawk · Feb 27, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

There's a thread in the pve section where we've already been discussing a little of what would help mesmers to be chosen in pve. Some of the ideas include skill reworking; a few sugested to make them deal aoe dmg, which I strongly disagree; just because it would rise problems in pvp. One nice idea that came out was to rework fast casting as well. Someone sugested to gain energy back per interruption, and I believe it's a good idea, like, each 2 (I suppose 1 would be kinda too strong) attribute in FC you gain 1 energy per interruption.

One thing is true; the pve system does not value finesse, so pure dmg will sufice because mobs die in 5 seconds anyway. I, however, find it senseless to make mobs lv 28, DoA like; I don't understand the logic of grinding outnumbered and outpowered. My sugestion, for a start, is to give mob healers in pve a full skill bar, perhaps, all mobs should have a 8 skill bar. I'm certain that like that, mesmers would make a difference. It would be at least a close-to-even situation to deal with. Mesmer elites need serious rework as well.

deppworthy · Feb 27, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Ok. I'm sick of every other mesmer on here saying "people don't understand the powa of da mesma." Wake up. Yes, they understand. It's not that mesmers are actually BAD in PvE, it's just that they aren't as good as the other classes. Sure, you can shut down a high damage or healer boss. Sure, you can degen a handful of mobs and wait around for them to die. Or, you can take your bonded tank, round up a bunch of targets and have a nuker do their thing. Have a guess at which is faster and works better for all but a very few select cases in the game.

Look at the end-game areas like DoA. Look at the builds being used there: monks and eles, usually a necro, sometimes a warrior (ele is a better tank there btw). Again, it's not that mesmers CAN'T do these areas, it's just that they're not as good as the other classes.

Now, the real issue is not "why do mesmers suck in PvE," it's "why do mesmer primaries suck in PvE?" The answer: Fast Casting. Look at the only gains for being a primary mesmer:
Fast Casting
Runes and stat bonuses
Item bonuses
(pretty armor, hot bods, yadda yadda)

Fast Casting SUCKS in PvE. There's just no point to it. If there's a mesmer boss out there, it's going to interrupt your spells whether or not they cast in half the time. Mantra of Recovery is a great skill, but it works just fine with 0 Fast Casting. ANY other primary attrib is better.

Attrib bonuses? Eh. Yeah, it's nice to get Domination to 16, but as stated earlier, it pales in comparison with Fire Magic 16, or Curses 16. Illusion/Inspiration work fine with single digit attrib scores.

Item bonuses? +1 to attrib? See above. 20% faster cast time? See Fast Casting. 20% recharge? Yeah, might be nice to spam some mantras or dom skills, or your precious degens and interrupts if you don't run out of energy first, but it pays off more to spam SS or SF.

In short, mesmer is SECOND CLASS in PvE. Want to make them better primaries in PvE? Change Fast Casting. The secret is: it'll never happen. Anything else just morphs them into a class that already exists.

And yes, I have a mez who's been everywhere, done everything, and has nice expensive armor. I still don't see them being a power PvE class.

Matsumi · Feb 27, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

It used to bother me that PuGs didn't want mesmers, but I don't really care much anymore. Because it's true, mesmers really do shine a lot more in PvP than in PvE. In PvE I do pretty well still, but I can't help but feel like Norgu at times. Where everyone tells him his play is garbage, and to just stick to the buffet (or PvP in the way I thought of it). Hordes and hordes of monsters really don't flinch too much at my annoying little hexes and skills. Partly because of their endless supply of energy, high health, more than one copy of a skill on their bars, and the list goes on... Plus, every PvE mesmer believes that they play a mesmer better than anyone else who plays one. The endless bragging and ego is enough to make a person puke sometimes. Yes, we get it, you are the best mesmer that ever mesmered, or something, now go away! lol

Seriously though, I really like playing a mesmer, more in PvP at the moment though. Not really sure what would make a mesmer wanted in PvE, except to even the playing field a little bit with the monsters, and have it so that brute force groups were more of a last resort to things, or not necessary. It's nice to be needed for a healer boss here and there, or heavy caster area, but not quite enough.

GrimWizard · Feb 27, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

There are definitely 2 areas that makes Mesmers suffer. They have been said before several times in this thread, by different people.

First, Mesmer skills are Overspecialized. Half of the Mesmer skills are only effective against Spells and the other half are only effective against Attacks. Plus, there is a further division between skills effective against enchanments and skills effective against Hexes. No other class has such a huge division between Useful and Wasted Skills at any one time. It's dizzying how much skill shifting mesmers have to do before entering a new area. Mesmer skills should be effective all the time. They can always be more effective in certain situations, But not completely useless half the time.

Second, Fast Casting isn't very effective in PvE. I don't really think this is fast casting's fault. It's the skills that make Fast Casting a waste. If Mesmers main advantage is being able to cast spells faster shouldn't their own class spells thrive on it? Why is that the longest casting spells are not mesmer skills?! I say cut all the Energy costs of Mesmer skills in half and DOUBLE all their casting times (Maybe that is a bit too general, but for most Mesmer skills it should work out) That way using Mesmer skills has an advantage when being used by mesmers, just like all the other classes do.

Unfortunately, Both of these problems require a complete reworking of Mesmer skills and considering we are already 3 Campaigns through I doubt Anet would be willing to do this. It looks like the Mesmer class will be stuck forever as the best Secondary Class for spellcasters...

Traveller · Feb 27, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Making mesmers a more viable option in PvE would require a few things I've wanted added in PvE anyways:

1) Make mobs more "realistic" and varied , fewer in number but intelligent skillbars, 8 skills, rezzing too. Mesmers don't actually shine with Nightfall-styled huge battles since, yes, they lack AoE damage, like stated many times before.

1a) Or just give more AoE options. But this is a short-term solution, and it seems A-Net is going the exact opposite way in nerfing Spiritual Pain and Energy Surge.

2) Make mob (or at least bosses') energy bar visible and realistic. I do not know if some enemies cheat with their energy resources or they just have uncanny energy pools.

Ensign · Feb 27, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

I think everyone pointing to Fast Casting for a reason why Mesmers aren't popular are missing the point entirely. Fast Casting is a perfectly good attribute in PvE. Casting spells faster = things die faster. Ever notice how Elementalists seem to love those fast casting mods? Fast spells are good. Fast Casting is good.

Not having anything worth casting in PvE is bad. You don't care how fast it casts if it isn't good.

I remember back in Prophecies there was one good reason to bring a Mesmer in a group - bosses. A lot of bosses were a pain in the ass to kill with a PUG, but bringing along a Mesmer to disable that boss made those fights go quite a bit smoother. Factions of course turned that on its head, by not only making bosses significantly more deadly (which was probably a good thing), but also made them much, much, *much* more difficult to shut down.

You want to know the real problem with Mesmers?

Arena.net has balanced the game in such a way that against the mobs where a Mesmer should be at his finest - the nasty bosses that stand out as a threat that needs to be tamed with mes effects - a Mesmer is instead an utter gimp, his spells ineffective from a bunch of game mechanics that serve to make bosses more 'mes-proof'.

You want to make Mesmers good? Make there be boss monsters that people want to kill, that are incredibly dangerous unless tamed by strong mes effects. Guild Wars focuses far too much on cleaning out trash mobs - and bosses, for the most part, are glorified trash. In World of Warcraft, everyone designs their characters and thinks of tactics to use to take down the bosses - clearing out the trash mobs is an afterthought. Until that sort of mentality makes sense in Guild Wars, I can't possibly see the Mesmer being an interesting profession in PvE.

Peace,
-CxE